#31 Musings Beyond the Bunker (Tuesday May 18)
Good morning,
Passions run high among baseball fans! As was the case with the question regarding basketball greats, I think the thought process and analytics deployed is more fascinating than the ultimate list. Here, then, are some of my favorite analysts, together with my commentary (hitters only this week):
JESSE SHARF—THIS IS EASIER THAN DRAFTING A GROUND LEASE
Jesse’s response begins with “Here, it’s easy” and then he lays it out:
“Greatest hitters: Ruth, Williams, Bonds. Oh, sure there are the Ty Cobbs of the world, but these guys hit just as well and had power. Similarly, Rose is way overrated—great contact hitter, sure, but Carew was better, and Brett could do what both of them did, with power (so could Mattingly for a couple of seasons). Brett is really one of the underrated greats.”
PAUL KANIN—I’LL MAKE UP MY OWN RULES, THANK YOU
First, let’s give Paul a hand for not picking a lineup comprised only of Dodgers (would have expected from this major partisan)… He, more than any other respondent, completely ignored the suggestion of highlighting players from 1960 and later (and he ranks them in order—note that he includes only one pitcher):
Willie Mays, Ted Williams, Sandy Koufax, Pete Rose, Henry Aaron, Mike Trout, Lou Gehrig, Albert Pujols, Babe Ruth, Stan Musial
DAVID LASH—RIVALING MICHAEL LEWIS FOR DETAIL
Giving this a lot of thought, conferring with my buddy with whom I argue over these things incessantly. Here are some thoughts:
* Everyone on your list has HOF credentials, even those who might never make it (Rose). I might take issue with Canseco, but he’s within shouting distance so I’ll let you have him for consideration.
* Shortstop is an interesting position. Since you are lumping all position players into a single category, I am wondering if you feel you need to have a shortstop. Ripken was an excellent player, a hall of famer for sure, but based mostly on his durability and longevity, both of which were remarkable. Whether he is a “best” player, I’m not quite sure. Jeter kind of falls into the same category, although he makes a better case for “best”. But frankly I am not sure what separates Jeter from Barry Larkin, Robin Yount or Paul Molitor.
* Frank Thomas and Wade Boggs, on pure talent and impact, probably are better choices than Jeter and Ripken.
* Catcher is another interesting position. Berra really was at his best in the 50s, so your 60s qualification may be his undoing. Mike Piazza was the best hitting catcher I ever saw. But his defense was middling and generally a catcher’s greatest value is defensive. So maybe Gary Carter and Carlton Fisk are better overall choices. Ivan “Pudge” Rodriguez maybe, too.
* All told, I think I would replace Ripken, Jeter, Berra and Banks (Ichiro, as great as he was, is kind of on my bubble). George Brett would be on my list instead, for sure. Rod Carew would get a serious look, as would Tony Gwynn.
* And Trout belongs on the list regardless, he is a once-in-a-lifetime kind of player. His combination of hitting and fielding is rivaled only by Willie Mays.
MARK DIMARIA—LET’S KEEP IT SIMPLE WITH ONLY ONE…
Like basketball, I am not great with multiples. So I again will stick to a single player.
The greatest all-around player of our lifetimes, and perhaps all time, was Willie Mays. A true four-tool all-star, who at his peak was the top player in each of those categories -- hitting for both average and for power, speed, and fielding. No, he did not pitch, and unfortunately only was a Met for the last two years of his career, when he was in his forties and total decline. His famous, full-speed, back-to-the-plate, catch of Vic Wertz's mammoth drive to center in the cavernous Polo Grounds in the 1954 World Series was the day before I was born. (In family lore, it had always been on the day of my birth, but we figured out years later that this was in error, since in that primitive media era, the film had not been broadcast and seen by my Dad until the day after the catch, when I was born.)
PETER BAIN—JUST THE FACTS
“No steroid boys. Too bad, because we’ll never know if they might have made it in their own merits if they had played clean!”
1. Hank Aaron
2. Willie Mays
3. Pete Rose
4. Roberto Clemente
5. Frank Robinson
6. Johnny Bench (his mind blowing defensive skills are too often undervalued.)
7. Derek Jeter
8. Reggie Jackson (interesting omission from your list)
9. Cal Ripken, Jr.
10. The Mick
WAIT, WAIT, ONE MORE THING—LASH, REDUX…
Not satisfied with his original list, David Lash had to send another email with an addendum…
I think we have to add Reggie Jackson to the mix. He rarely hit .300 but his OPS generally was sensational and his impact on the game was immense. He sort of became a joke due to his over-sized personality, but he really was one of the greats.
IMPACT
For me, impact on the game at the time is a huge factor. As important as leading key categories (both for all players and for position) and comparing favorably historically, players’ personalities, style, public persona, and perceived irreplaceability must play a factor. Without listing ALL players, these are “essential” players in the lore of baseball. Note that some of the iconic players are identifiable by last name or nickname only, which tells you something:
PRE-1960: Ruth, Gehrig, DiMaggio, Ted Williams, Ernie Banks, Stan Musial, Jackie Robinson
1960s: Koufax, Mantle, Mays, Roberto Clemente
1970s to 1990s: Reggie Jackson, Frank Robinson, Pete Rose, Henry Aaron, Willie Stargell (some would question this but most home runs hit in the 70s, .282 lifetime average, Pirates perennial post-season team), Cal Ripken, Jr., Derek Jeter
Modern Times: Albert Pujols (I mean the pre-Angels days!), Mike Trout
A number of others in mid-career and too early to judge…
DAVID LASH, REDUX, AGAIN…!
Then a week later, David Lash weighed in again (number three—I’m waiting for response number four any day now):
"PS: I need to add Mike Schmidt to the list, wow that man could hit and field"
Play ball!